Nell, neither I nor Rational Recovery bash anyone whether they want to quit or not. I am highly critical of 12-step recoveryism because it transforms problem drinking into chronic, lifetime addiction, as in your case. The “nice people” at recovery groups are low-life like yourself who stubbornly refuse to quit drinking/using and expect their families to live under the cloud of one-day-at-a-time sobriety. I would expect much more of anyone I met in a supermarket.

I am personally responsible for myself, and so far, noone has brainwashed me. I have, however, quit drinking for a long time. That’s amazing to me. I have cut off ties to some old friends, but since they were raging drunks and leaches, it wasn’t really a loss. I kept my other friends, even though they have nothing to do with AA.

No one believes he’s been brainwashed. However, you are not responsible for yourself if you adhere to the 12-step program, which assigns your decisions and volition to a made-up God-as-you-understand-him. If you recall, you were implored to “surrender control, let go, let God, and keep coming back because itwrksifuwrkit.”

I appreciate the support of AA meetings.

That’s nice, Nell, but you deserve no support. Your use of alcohol and other drugs was immoral and intolerable, and finally no one would support you. You still haven’t quit, leaving open the possibility of “relapses.” In order to gain any support worth having, you will have to assure others you’ll never drink again. One-day-at-a-time sobriety isn’t good enough in the real world.

In AA, however, there are no moral standards, and everyone is supported by virtue of just being there. You expect that your family will accommodate your uncertainty about future drinking/using, and feel entitled to their support because you’re an alcoholic.

Also, I certainly do not trust drug companies, and yes, they will harm people for profit. That doesn’t mean that some people who take psychiatric medications don’t benefit from them. It’s a subjective, person by person issue. Definitely not black and white.

I  think you’re timidly suggesting that my character is stained by charging real money for Rational Recovery® goods and services. If so, you sense of entitlement is disgusting, based as it is upon a pretend disease to excuse the immorality of your past and future use of alcohol and other drugs. Yes, one-day-at-a-time sobriety confirms the worst possible assumption, that in spite of all the harm you have caused yourself and others, you nevertheless reserve the privilege of drinking once again under certain undefined, “perfect” condition.

Jack Trimpey

It is the Greatest Imperfect Country on Earth, I fell for the 12 step philosophy for about 5 years but then the desire to conform to Idiocy was no longer needed and I take complete accountability of my actions regardless of what is socially acceptable. I will never drink or use drugs for recreation again and for all of the other vices that I have succumbed to in the past, I do not blame them on alcohol. To try to reason with the unreasonable is a futile endeavor. Live a great life and know you are on the right path.

It’s been 20 years since I came across this web-site while doing research for a school project. I am entering the Health care field (not treatment) and am amazed at all of the “wine dinners” sponsored by pharmaceutical companies for Physicians.
You have stated what “I came to believe” on my own and I find it refreshing. I will visit this site again.

Dow (Dow Corning) made every effort to hid the dangers of this chemical. So I think it is a little silly to say that capitalistic companies always have excellence in mind when they develop new products. They also create the “doctors dope” which is given like candy to people with the diagnosis “du joir” like bipolar disorder or schizoid-affective disorder or whatever.

The amount of money made on pushing prozac and other anti-depressents is staggering. The pharmaceutical industry pushes “disease” on all of us every day in TV advertising. There is always some “problem” that they can cure. Yet, witness the recalls of drugs that have killed or maimed people who were convinced that pharmaceutical corporations really cared about their well being. And it is ironic that you defend this when RR is actually against the “doctors dope” as means of battling “Addicto-Depressive Disorder.”

I’m not against science or capitalism. Both are great. The idea that they (for profits) are any more moral or ethical than non-profits is simply not true.

And I agree that non-profits can actually be worse because they represent themselves as “rising above” corruption when they are just as susceptible to it as the
for-profits. I worked for a non-profit that “downsized” and they were just as horrible as any corporation, when it came down to the way we were treated.

Something to consider.

Michael,

Good comments!

I do tend to glorify capitalism, because it is the economic engine of Western Civilization and the corresponding bonanza of human achievements. You are right, though, that capitalism requires objective oversight and regulation to curb excess and its harmful effects.

This discussion is relevant to AVRT-based recovery because addiction is characterized by progressive dependence, and fellowships of addiction advance a philosophy of dependency typical of progressive socialism and its American stepchild, the non-profit organization. Shockingly political, AVRT® brings out a surge of individualism and traditional values upon which this nation was founded, a way of life now being destroyed by the advances of collectivist ideals in social policies and public affairs. Addicted people walk away from their dependencies on alcohol and other drugs, and become men and women of character and integrity, without the need for evening supervision, constant moral preening, and other unwholesome self-involvement.

AA’s boastful description of the non-profit organization as “self-supporting” is not only bizarre, but indicative of the comprehensive inversion of thinking in the dependent world of collectivist thought.

Jack Trimpey

One of the basic principles of dealing with people is that when the degree of severity of a reaction is out of proportion to the significance of the stimulus it is most certainly out of fear. Your rant at Cary and grandiose demand for an apology (that you wrote…how charming) is obviously coming from a place of insecurity against a strong and poignant argument.

I question the advice of someone so ignorant of human nature as to make a statement that “I am simply incapable of acting in certain ways, absolute, final, forever, guaranteed.” Jack, you go ahead and stick with your ‘super-human sobriety’ and let we mortal beings do our thing, please.

Readers: Do not let your mind be clouded by people (or substances), rather, find strength within yourselves through any means possible. The knowledge that we are imperfect in our humanity and must always be alert is the VERY thing to which we must cling. How many times must we be cursed because of our arrogance before a lesson is learned?

Chris,

I think I agree with your tip to the Readers. However, your other comments seem hazy, although I can see that you take issue with my views on addiction and recovery. Perhaps your attempts to analyze my motives and character should wait until you complete more meetings and formal rehab. Who knows, as the fog of addiction lifts, you might start making sense, starting with yourself. Better yet, you might decide to abstain under all conditions based upon the piercing insight that, for you, self-intoxication is profoundly immoral conduct. Of course, that would disqualify you from any further meetings and formal rehab. It’s your call, and your meter is running.
Cheers, really,

Jack Trimpey

Readers,

Here is a man who lists his own grievances against AA, and tells me, with sensitivity for my feelings, that I shouldn’t criticise AA. He is in the grip of florid addiction, blithely unaware that he is suffering from the persistent, harmful effects of 12-step indoctrinations, i.e., recovery group disorder.

There’s nothing wrong with him, making him act this way. He has a manly desire for addictive pleasures, which he indulges with great gusto and proficiency. He’s just being an ass, which anyone familiar with deep drunkenness knows he can also be. But there’s a dark cloud over Harold’s stupidity, a set of circumstances that puts him at risk of great losses, possibly the loss his life.

Harold has not studied AVRT® because he drinks every day. It is impossible to defeat an addiction while under the influence. Every word above is in the idiom we call Addictive Voice, and he is in a condition we call, “all Beast.” His message can be summmarized, “I can’t stop drinking long enough to help myself because no one knows how much I want to keep on drinking.” He is chasing pleasure, which also blots out the emotional consequences of his craziness, so he drinks, and he drinks, and he drinks. He uses the name, Rational Recovery®, like a good luck charm, as if “RR” chases away the evil spirits causing his stupidity. In other words, he believes that something outside of himself will deliver him from his addiction. This is because he cannot comprehend that he is not his body, and that his Addictive Voice is merely his body talking to him. Instead, he rejects ambivalence itself, as if his moral conscience is an unwelcome intruder, or as if his desire for physical pleasure is a sign of infirmity. This is the state of “all Beast,” noted above. (Can be interpreted, “all body, no conscience.”)
Harold is playing the role of the mythical character, “an alcoholic,” whose character and identity are defined by his stupidity, which he misrepresents as his victimhood. He is extremely gullible to any idea that removes the burden to immediately cease and forever desist from alcohol and other drugs. He has entered various fellowships of addiction in which members join together to dignify their common passion for addictive pleasures, and discover new ways of building tolerance for their substance abuse in their families, their communities, and in our social service system.

The most famous fellowship of addiction, Alcoholics Anonymous, has created a personality template for members, “the alcoholic,” so that members appear to be sick rather than stupid, humble rather than dignified, spiritual rather than worldly, incompetent rather than shrewd, passive rather than aggressive, serene rather than angry, victims rather than perpetrators, and obtaining misery rather than pleasure from self-intoxication.

This personality template, “alcoholic,” has become a mark that distinguishes problem drinkers and other addicts from the rest of society who must live by rules and standards of morality, civility, and common decency. The template is not a personality disorder, but a chosen personality learned through fellowship with other addicted people, especially recovery groups, where addicted people are finally confronted with the necessity of gaining strength in defense of self-intoxication in sheer numbers, or, as AA founder Bill Wilson described it, “the herd mentality.” People in recovery are all Beast, in a vast herd called the recovery group movement.

Harold can promptly succeed if he will simply stop drinking long enough to study AVRT® and make a solid personal commitment to lifetime abstinence. Although he is all Beast, there is an original soul inside him, and that individual knows that he can quit any time he chooses.  He doesn’t like AA-bashing, so let’s see if this bit of Harold-bashing will cause him to stand on his hind legs and walk away from the barnyard of his addiction.

Jack Trimpey

Cary,

You are entirely aware that I have a history of alcohol addiction. To solve that problem, I made a commitment that I will never drink again. My Big Plan is my guarantee to myself, my family, to you, to God, that I will never drink again. In other words, my only protection against enormous suffering and death is my moral judgment that I will never drink again.

Even though you realize that I rely only upon myself to remain perfectly abstinent, you very purposely attempt to undermine my self-confidence in my ability to abstain. In other words, you actually want me to resume drinking, knowing full well the suffering and harm I would cause myself and others, and you are actively attempting to make that happen, right here, before the world.
I won’t try to guess why you are making this attempt on my life. However, I am taking this very seriously, because you are not only threatening my life, but the lives of many thousands of addicted people who will visit this website. Rational Recovery is a refuge against people like you, the bottom-feeders of AA who prey on desperate people by making them afraid of their own thought processes and bodily desires. You are the epitome of Alcoholics Anonymous, taking down newcomers as if they are big game, making sure none surpass your asinine achievement of one-day-at-a-time sobriety. The likes of you are the very reason Rational Recovery exists.

Although I am immune to your attack on me and my family (yes, others would be harmed if you succeeded), addicted people are not. In fact, they are already doubtful of themselves, and are extremely vulnerable to your kind of stepcraft. Many will readily sell out on themselves once they feel hopeless about independent recovery. Then they become like you, and bite others the same way you, Cary, were once bitten. They will acquire addict-identity, call themselves “alcoholic,” and center their lives around addiction rather than self-determination and dignity.

I should thank you for showing everyone the dark side of AA that I keep writing about, but that would be like thanking the criminal for educating us about why crime is bad. Yours is not a little offense, Cary; you know what you’re doing to others, and you do it anyhow, out of cult loyalty and to cement your own fate as a grateful, recovering alcoholic. Instead, I want an apology for wishing harm on others, and a disclaimer for every future visitor of the website. I want you to endorse this statement:

I, Cary Brief, apologize for attemting to undermine the confidence of addicted people to abstain from alcohol and other drugs purely as a matter of moral judgment and personal commitment. I understand that addicted people must learn to trust themselves, and to recognize all self-doubt about lifetime abstinence as moral deviance. I will never again tell another human being that they are powerless over their bodily desires, or that in order to remain perfectly abstinent they must do anything at all, including attend recovery group meetings, learn new coping skills, rely upon social support, pray to God, undertake self-improvement, obtain medical or psychological services, or avoid becoming hungry, angry, lonely , or tired.

As I said, I am serious. You tried to take me down, and others as well. I know what you’ve been doing at meetings, Cary, and I’m going to stop you from doing it any longer. Tell your sponsor about this, and let your home group know that I’m out to stop them from undermining the confidence of addicted people to abstain under all conditions. This incident affects you, them, all of AA, and especially the addiction treatment industry, who take people down for non-profit profits.

Jack Trimpey

Still, I have found the tone of your site just as dogmatic as anything AA says about recovery.

Though I have never considered AA or any program as the final holy grail… your statement critical of the AA idea that “relapse is always a possibility” seems equally absolute…. the only way you can refute this is to say that at some point in recovery relapse will no longer be a possibility. If that is what you are really saying… you won’t have many takers. “No longer possible,” would seem a bit strong.

For me, the disease model of addiction is not a perfect fit, but it has advanced the ball to more effective treatment. I believe the rational model does have something to add… but “once cured always cured” would be one of its less productive contributions.

correct if I’m wrong…

Steve,

I personally guarantee everyone I care about that I’ll never drink again. I can do this from the moral dimension, which is unknown in the realm of addiction. There are a number of acts that are too wretched, to evil, for me to voluntarily commit. Drinking is #1 on that list. I am simply incapable of acting in certain ways, absolute, final, forever, guaranteed. That guarantee, which is called the Big Plan, is a defining trait of my character. I can be depended upon to never drink/use.

The disease concept of addiction is the denial of the moral axis of addiction and recovery. The disease concept of addiction is for moral sissies who would rather have a pretend disease than quit on moral principle. That is why so very few, if any, ever recover and live normal lives. There are no treatments such as you describe. None.

Jack Trimpey