Comments on: AA: Not What It Used To Be? http://www.rational.org/blog/51/ Alcoholism, Drug Addiction, AA, 12-step Sat, 05 Jul 2008 01:40:55 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.0.2 by: Todd D. http://www.rational.org/blog/51/#comment-29245 Fri, 04 Jan 2008 15:35:44 +0000 http://www.rational.org/blog/51/#comment-29245 Dear Mellbell, I was you back in the begining of March of 07. Stay with this way of thinking and you will never drink again.The best part of a big plan is that your resolve seems to grow with each passing day.My only frustration is watching all the poor souls getting thrown to AA and watching the public ones continue to flounder. I was addicted to meetings and hated my time there as much as I hated my love of alcohol and all the time I spent romancing the bottle. My friend,if I tally up the time I spent at meetings in 2006 and project that time spent with my family and constructive activity in 2007 it equals about 1000 hours.(10 months free of AA in 07) AA was an incredible waste of my time and ability to grow as a normal human being,that just so happens to not drink. One last thought for you.All the time spent in AA was time talking about alcohol,thinking about alcohol and obsessing about alcohol.IT IS NO WONDER SO MANY IN THE PROGRAM CONTINUE TO DRINK. I go weeks without thinking of drinking and when it is thrust on me my our society ,all I have to do is remind myself that I NEVER DRINK NOW PERIOD Best wishes to all in the new year and thanks Jack, Todd D. Dear Mellbell,
I was you back in the begining of March of 07.
Stay with this way of thinking and you will never drink again.The best part of a big plan is that your resolve seems to grow with each passing day.My only frustration is watching all the poor souls getting thrown to AA and watching the public ones continue to flounder.
I was addicted to meetings and hated my time there as much as I hated my love of alcohol and all the time I spent romancing the bottle.
My friend,if I tally up the time I spent at meetings in 2006 and project that time spent with my family and constructive activity in 2007 it equals about 1000 hours.(10 months free of AA in 07)
AA was an incredible waste of my time and ability to grow as a normal human being,that just so happens to not drink.
One last thought for you.All the time spent in AA was time talking about alcohol,thinking about alcohol and obsessing about alcohol.IT IS NO WONDER SO MANY IN THE PROGRAM CONTINUE TO DRINK.
I go weeks without thinking of drinking and when it is thrust on me my our society ,all I have to do is remind myself that I NEVER DRINK NOW PERIOD
Best wishes to all in the new year and thanks Jack,
Todd D.

]]> by: Peter Little http://www.rational.org/blog/51/#comment-26863 Sat, 15 Dec 2007 14:45:06 +0000 http://www.rational.org/blog/51/#comment-26863 Interesting reading. My only comment: Al-Anon is not for helping to understand the alcoholic or alcoholism. Al-Anon is there to help Family and Friends to recover from the effects of living with an alcoholic. There is a massive difference as to what you are suggesting. Peter Little <blockquote><em>Peter,</em> <em>You are right; as an AA member, I was told that my family would never really understand the disease concept of addiction, and that is why they should attend Al-Anon. However, it is disingenuous to convey that the purpose of Al-Anon is not to lever the addicted family member into AA by withholding contact and affection. In other words, Al-Anon has no concept of addiction recovery through planned, permanent abstinence. Al-Anon is a 12-step program based entirely upon the disease concept of addiction, complete with the ideas of powerlessness and the belief that recovery comes only in the form of 12-step salvation. </em> <em>Al-Anon compares very poorly to AVRT-based recovery for the family, in that there is no expectation that the addict abstain from alcohol and other drugs. There is no demand that the addict choose between addiction and family membership, but only that the addict choose between 12-step recovery and rejection by the family. </em> <em>Consequently, many families are destroyed by Al-Anon’s passivity and failure to insist that the alcoholic/addict immediately cease and desist from any further use of alcohol and other drugs, under the promise that any so-called “relapses” will result in Plan B, which may be divorce, separation, separation, disownment, or other measures that would protect the family from continued abuse. </em> <em>Keep in mind that Al-Anon is an auxiliary of AA/NA, and actively serves the interest of chronic addiction and not of prompt recovery. </em> <em>Jack Trimpey  </em></blockquote> Interesting reading. My only comment:
Al-Anon is not for helping to understand the alcoholic or alcoholism.
Al-Anon is there to help Family and Friends to recover from the effects of living with an alcoholic. There is a massive difference as to what you are suggesting.

Peter Little

Peter,

You are right; as an AA member, I was told that my family would never really understand the disease concept of addiction, and that is why they should attend Al-Anon. However, it is disingenuous to convey that the purpose of Al-Anon is not to lever the addicted family member into AA by withholding contact and affection. In other words, Al-Anon has no concept of addiction recovery through planned, permanent abstinence. Al-Anon is a 12-step program based entirely upon the disease concept of addiction, complete with the ideas of powerlessness and the belief that recovery comes only in the form of 12-step salvation.

Al-Anon compares very poorly to AVRT-based recovery for the family, in that there is no expectation that the addict abstain from alcohol and other drugs. There is no demand that the addict choose between addiction and family membership, but only that the addict choose between 12-step recovery and rejection by the family.

Consequently, many families are destroyed by Al-Anon’s passivity and failure to insist that the alcoholic/addict immediately cease and desist from any further use of alcohol and other drugs, under the promise that any so-called “relapses” will result in Plan B, which may be divorce, separation, separation, disownment, or other measures that would protect the family from continued abuse.

Keep in mind that Al-Anon is an auxiliary of AA/NA, and actively serves the interest of chronic addiction and not of prompt recovery. 

Jack Trimpey  

]]> by: MellBell http://www.rational.org/blog/51/#comment-24506 Wed, 21 Nov 2007 17:19:09 +0000 http://www.rational.org/blog/51/#comment-24506 I have tried rehab and a year of AA - twice - only to feel completely disconnected and looking askance at the "true believers" who live &#38; breathe The Program. I blamed &#38; shamed myself for not 'getting it' and continuing to go out &#38; drink. Finally I gave myself permission to leave AA and research other recovery options, and found RR. It is only Day One of my Big Plan, but I "get it," I know in my gut that it is doable and that I don't have to live with that awful waiting-for-the-other-shoe-to-drop feeling of "when will I give in &#38; drink again?" Thank you Jack for your sensible solution! I have tried rehab and a year of AA - twice - only to feel completely disconnected and looking askance at the “true believers” who live & breathe The Program. I blamed & shamed myself for not ‘getting it’ and continuing to go out & drink. Finally I gave myself permission to leave AA and research other recovery options, and found RR. It is only Day One of my Big Plan, but I “get it,” I know in my gut that it is doable and that I don’t have to live with that awful waiting-for-the-other-shoe-to-drop feeling of “when will I give in & drink again?” Thank you Jack for your sensible solution!

]]> by: Howard http://www.rational.org/blog/51/#comment-23685 Wed, 14 Nov 2007 19:55:42 +0000 http://www.rational.org/blog/51/#comment-23685 Danny is making excuses. AA needs coercion. It cannot prosper without coercion. That coercion can end tomorrow. But, AA lives by it. As for AA and any other recovery group: At the end of the day, everyone quits on their own Danny is making excuses. AA needs coercion. It cannot prosper without coercion. That coercion can end tomorrow. But, AA lives by it.
As for AA and any other recovery group: At the end of the day, everyone quits on their own

]]> by: Jim Heckel http://www.rational.org/blog/51/#comment-22691 Mon, 05 Nov 2007 04:19:27 +0000 http://www.rational.org/blog/51/#comment-22691 One other thing I'd like to mention. Alcohol is a drug. Those who are addicted to alcohol are indeed drug addicts. Put it this way: Suppose you asked me if I own an automobile. How would you react if I said "No, but I do own a Honda."? That would likely get me quite a few funny looks at me, the apparent imbecile who fails to realise that his old Honda is indeed an automobile. Drugs are drugs. A high is a high. The fact that alcohol is the only legal way to get high in the United States doesn't change the fact that someone with a belly full of Old Rheinhard is just as stoned as someone with $20.00 of China White in his bloodstream. The only difference between the alcohol addict and the heroin addict is strictly cultural. There is no medical justification for drawing such a distinction. Reform AA? You might as well attempt to reform the Beast, for that is what you will be attempting, plain and simple. RR will still target AA, for RR targets Addictive Voice irrespective of its source, and AA is Addictive Voice in psuedo medical / religious / psychopop terms. The Beast will always be the Beast, and AA will always be AA. Cheers, Jim One other thing I’d like to mention. Alcohol is a drug. Those who are addicted to alcohol are indeed drug addicts. Put it this way: Suppose you asked me if I own an automobile. How would you react if I said “No, but I do own a Honda.”? That would likely get me quite a few funny looks at me, the apparent imbecile who fails to realise that his old Honda is indeed an automobile.

Drugs are drugs. A high is a high. The fact that alcohol is the only legal way to get high in the United States doesn’t change the fact that someone with a belly full of Old Rheinhard is just as stoned as someone with $20.00 of China White in his bloodstream. The only difference between the alcohol addict and the heroin addict is strictly cultural. There is no medical justification for drawing such a distinction.

Reform AA? You might as well attempt to reform the Beast, for that is what you will be attempting, plain and simple. RR will still target AA, for RR targets Addictive Voice irrespective of its source, and AA is Addictive Voice in psuedo medical / religious / psychopop terms. The Beast will always be the Beast, and AA will always be AA.

Cheers,
Jim

]]> by: Jim Heckel http://www.rational.org/blog/51/#comment-22619 Sun, 04 Nov 2007 11:20:38 +0000 http://www.rational.org/blog/51/#comment-22619 Actually, Wilson and Smith did die of their addiction to nicotine - both men smoked themselves to death and died of throat cancer (Smith) and emphysema (Wilson). How this death is better than dying on a hospital bed, skin blaze orange from the toxins a rapidly dying liver cannot remove, is beyond me. Actually, Wilson and Smith did die of their addiction to nicotine - both men smoked themselves to death and died of throat cancer (Smith) and emphysema (Wilson).

How this death is better than dying on a hospital bed, skin blaze orange from the toxins a rapidly dying liver cannot remove, is beyond me.

]]> by: Chris S. http://www.rational.org/blog/51/#comment-22305 Thu, 01 Nov 2007 17:45:27 +0000 http://www.rational.org/blog/51/#comment-22305 Yes - "Some of us needed to be beaten into a state of reasonableness" and "One poor chap committed suicide in our home because he could not accept our way of life". A.A. was so spiritual, sublime, benevolent, and loving back in the good old days. "One poor chap died because he could not accept our scientific medical experiments." - Dr. Josef Mengele. Anyone notice a similarity? Oops, I better point out that I made that up, and it's a joke. Those AA folks tend to be a bit literal-minded. And addicts are not the same as alcoholics??? Orwell, anyone? The contorted "reasoning" people spout as if it were sunshine, to defend the most absolutely stark raving barking lunacy, should have long since ceased to amaze me, but unfortunately it hasn't. "No one is “addicted” to alcohol past the normal seventy hours of detoxification" - neither is anyone else addicted to anything else past detoxification, of course. So Danny's point is ... I'm sure Danny S.'s explanation of this is amusing ... but I guess I'll just have to deny myself the pleasure. Don't want to be selfish, self-centered, and self-seeking ... Yes -
“Some of us needed to be beaten into a state of reasonableness” and “One poor chap committed suicide in our home because he could not accept our way of life”. A.A. was so spiritual, sublime, benevolent, and loving back in the good old days.

“One poor chap died because he could not accept our scientific medical experiments.” - Dr. Josef Mengele. Anyone notice a similarity? Oops, I better point out that I made that up, and it’s a joke. Those AA folks tend to be a bit literal-minded.

And addicts are not the same as alcoholics??? Orwell, anyone? The contorted “reasoning” people spout as if it were sunshine, to defend the most absolutely stark raving barking lunacy, should have long since ceased to amaze me, but unfortunately it hasn’t.

“No one is “addicted” to alcohol past the normal seventy hours of detoxification” - neither is anyone else addicted to anything else past detoxification, of course. So Danny’s point is …
I’m sure Danny S.’s explanation of this is amusing … but I guess I’ll just have to deny myself the pleasure. Don’t want to be selfish, self-centered,
and self-seeking …

]]> by: Steve Peckman http://www.rational.org/blog/51/#comment-22224 Wed, 31 Oct 2007 22:41:07 +0000 http://www.rational.org/blog/51/#comment-22224 Jack: I wish you could end AA, too. I wasted so much time praying to a god of my imagination to rid me of this "disease." I remember sitting in meetings when the old timers would lament about how watered-down AA had become, and how far AA had drifted from its old glory days. When was AA in its glory days? Look at its founder, Bill Wilson. He was an egomaniac who engaged in spiritism (which is forbidden in the Bible). He was unfaithful to his wife and asked for a shot of whiskey on his deathbed. If this is how AA started, it should be no surprise that AA is "rotten to the core" as you said. Getting sober was not something that I asked God to do for me. It was more of a pledge to God, an idea I leared from Rational Recovery. After all, God is not a puppeteer and its not my the fault of my family that I made stupid, immoral decisions. Thanks, Jack. Steve Jack:

I wish you could end AA, too. I wasted so much time praying to a god of my imagination to rid me of this “disease.” I remember sitting in meetings when the old timers would lament about how watered-down AA had become, and how far AA had drifted from its old glory days.

When was AA in its glory days? Look at its founder, Bill Wilson. He was an egomaniac who engaged in spiritism (which is forbidden in the Bible). He was unfaithful to his wife and asked for a shot of whiskey on his deathbed. If this is how AA started, it should be no surprise that AA is “rotten to the core” as you said.

Getting sober was not something that I asked God to do for me. It was more of a pledge to God, an idea I leared from Rational Recovery. After all, God is not a puppeteer and its not my the fault of my family that I made stupid, immoral decisions.

Thanks, Jack.

Steve

]]> by: John McCready http://www.rational.org/blog/51/#comment-22208 Wed, 31 Oct 2007 18:18:01 +0000 http://www.rational.org/blog/51/#comment-22208 Jack, if it had not been for your "disclaimer" at the end of "Danny's pathetic rant, I would have said you degraded your blog site by posting it. Danny is a typical, pathetic myopic, "alcoholic" who has the typical "alcoholics (and AA) are different and special" mentality. If he had any brains, he would have made the case that judges, etc. should STOP COERCING PEOPLE to go to AA, so that AA can go back to being a VOLUNTARY attended group of people. and then DIE OFF, as the myopic alcoholics will (by about 2035, when AA would turn 100!). This is what will kill off AA-it's "singularness of purpose"! As addicts have become more "diverse" in their variety of drugs they choose to become addicted to, AA will lose membership, and sink into the abyss as it should. Granted, it would be great to see it go sooner, but I think it would be better to give it the "mercy killing" it so thoroughly deserves by cutting off its flow of INVOLUNTARY (Coerced!) attendees, and let the voluntary "true-believing" attendees, evaporate groups through their own diminishing numbers of relapse, and other "biological terminations" that death is the result of. <blockquote>John, You raise the key point that, while old-timers pine for the halcyon days of AA, none of them have the guts or moral fiber to “out” AA for the corrupt practices they complain about. Instead, they all reflect the AA tradition to rise above controversy and honor AA unity above all ethical and moral concerns. The Midtown Group scandal is a good example of AA central’s moral dereliction and evasion of accountability. They truly believe that AA is above public accountability. Jack Trimpey</blockquote> Jack, if it had not been for your “disclaimer” at the end of “Danny’s pathetic rant, I would have said you degraded your blog site by posting it. Danny is a typical, pathetic myopic, “alcoholic” who has the typical “alcoholics (and AA) are different and special” mentality. If he had any brains, he would have made the case that judges, etc. should STOP COERCING PEOPLE to go to AA, so that AA can go back to being a VOLUNTARY attended group of people. and then DIE OFF, as the myopic alcoholics will (by about 2035, when AA would turn 100!). This is what will kill off AA-it’s “singularness of purpose”! As addicts have become more “diverse” in their variety of drugs they choose to become addicted to, AA will lose membership, and sink into the abyss as it should. Granted, it would be great to see it go sooner, but I think it would be better to give it the “mercy killing” it so thoroughly deserves by cutting off its flow of INVOLUNTARY (Coerced!) attendees, and let the voluntary “true-believing” attendees, evaporate groups through their own diminishing numbers of relapse, and other “biological terminations” that death is the result of.

John,

You raise the key point that, while old-timers pine for the halcyon days of AA, none of them have the guts or moral fiber to “out” AA for the corrupt practices they complain about. Instead, they all reflect the AA tradition to rise above controversy and honor AA unity above all ethical and moral concerns. The Midtown Group scandal is a good example of AA central’s moral dereliction and evasion of accountability. They truly believe that AA is above public accountability.

Jack Trimpey

]]> by: Bill Urell http://www.rational.org/blog/51/#comment-22205 Wed, 31 Oct 2007 16:50:01 +0000 http://www.rational.org/blog/51/#comment-22205 "AA has always been rotten to the core, giving with no redeeming qualities whatsoever. " You made your position clear, and provide an alternative. Can you provide any empirically valid, controlled studies that validate you claims of Rational Recovery's effectiveness? <blockquote>Bill, That information is provided and discussed here: <a target="_blank" href="http://www.rational.org/faq.html">Frequently Asked Questions</a> Jack Trimpey</blockquote> “AA has always been rotten to the core, giving with no redeeming qualities whatsoever. ” You made your position clear, and provide an alternative. Can you provide any empirically valid, controlled studies that validate you claims of Rational Recovery’s effectiveness?

Bill,

That information is provided and discussed here:

Frequently Asked Questions

Jack Trimpey

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