posted 09-23-2002 02:39 PM            

quote:

---

1. We admitted we were powerless over alcohol, that our lives had become unmanageable.
2. Came to believe that a Power greater than ourselves could restore us to sanity.
3. Made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of God as we understood Him.
4. Made a searching and fearless moral inventory of ourselves.
5. Admitted to God, to ourselves, and to another human being the exact nature of our wrongs.
6. Were entirely ready to have God remove all these defects of character.
7. Humbly asked Him to remove our shortcomings.
8. Made a list of all persons we had harmed, and became willing to make amends to them all.
9. Made direct amends to such people wherever possible, except when to do so would injure them or others.
10. Continued to take personal inventory and when we were wrong promptly admitted it.
11. Sought through prayer and meditation to improve our conscious contact with God as we understood Him, praying only for knowledge of His
will for us and the power to carry that out.
12. Having had a spiritual awakening as the result of these steps, we tried to carry this message to alcoholics, and to practice these
principles in all our affairs

---

quote:

---

When ready, we say something like this: "My Creator, I am now willing that you should have all of me, good and bad. I pray that you now remove from me every single defect of character which stands in the way of my usefulness to you and my fellows. Grant me strength, as I go out from here, to do your bidding. Amen" We have then completed Step Seven (Empahsis in original)

---

Now take a look at Step Ten: "Continued to take personal inventory and when we were wrong promptly admitted it" Just what is that doing in there?(!) Since God has taken away all our defects of character, what is there left to inventory? The inventory's empty, isn't it? Was this just a meaningless throw-away step so they wouldn't have to call it the Eleven Steps? Or do they mean it? The very first paragraph after the introduction of the Twelve Steps (pg. 60, "Big Book"):

quote:

---

Many of us exclaimed, "What an order! I can't go through with it" Do not be discouraged. No one among us has been able to maintain anything like perfect adhereance to these principles. We are not saints. The point is, that we are willing to grow along spiritual lines. The principles we have set down are guides to progress. We claim spiritual progress rather than spiritual perfection (Emphasis mine)

---

How about that! I just ditched four steps, and cut a considerable amount of dead wood right out of "The Program". Now all that remains is what to do about this revelation. Should I write to Alcoholics Anonymous World Services? They just put out the Fourth Edition of the "Big Book" so it might not be another fifteen years or so before they introduce the Fifth Edition with the new, streamlined Eight Step program. Perhaps I should write my own version? Hey, I even have a snappy title for it: Buttercup's Big Book: The Easier, Softer Way

Damn, sometimes I impress even myself.

posted 09-23-2002 07:11 PM            

AA is despicable in more ways than I can count. However, let us never forget that the A Number One problem with AA is that their program does not work. Even that would be bad enough, but they make matters worse. The Steps are nonsense, and, yet what happens when someone sincerely approaches AA for help? When they dry out, and can think clearly again, and their intellectual, religious, and/or moral integrity tells them that AA isn't for them, what happens? Do these folks, in their lovingkindness, say: "We're sorry to see you leave the Fellowship. Perhaps it isn't for you afterall. If you don't want our help, please get help somewhere, and in the mean time, please don't drink"? Do they say something like that? HELL NO! Instead they claim that he's in "denial" (a term from pop-psychology you won't find anywhere in the "Big Book") that he needs to go out and "hit his bottom", so that when he returns (assuming he doesn't drink himself to death) he can get "humble" and "honest". Between the ideology of "powerlessness", and the claim that those who don't "make it" are constitutionally incapable of being honest with themselves, and that they are born that way, AA inevitably turns mild drinking problems into severe ones. These people have blood on their hands. And all the while, they claim that the "Program" relieves them of all selfishness and self-seeking. AA's attrition exceeds that of the Bataan Death March, with a recidivism rate of at least 91% or more. When they either outright kill someone, or some old-timer "goes back out", they simply say: "Some must die so the rest may live" - How utterly cold-blooded! Such a nice spirituality!

I've seen plenty of web sites that attack the Steps, but always one at a time. AFAIC, this isn't good enough, since the stepper confronted with this kind of attack will simply give the stock answer: "You're in denial, and need to get honest". It's a whole 'nother story to demonstrate that the Steps, taken as a whole, are self-contradictory. Demonstrating the absurdity of the system, as a whole, will do more to help ex-steppers get over any RGDs they may still have, it gives the readers of these forums more potent ammo to fire at AA whenever some celeb makes some maudlin tribute to the "Steps". And it might actually help some steppers as they now no longer have to fool with the most dangerous ones. Playing with the Fourth and Fifth Steps, this amateur psychology, is playing with fire. Those "fearless moral inventories" are the prime cause of "going back out", can lead to severe depression, and have even been known to lead to suicide. This type of introspection is best handled under the care of a professional, and not some dumbass sponsor you met in some meeting. Perhaps the stepper who's being pressured to do a Fourth Step inventory, against his better judgement, will gain the courage to tell his sponsor to shove it after reading this thread. Even better, he'd see just what a steaming, stinking pile of poo AA really is, and would take the Crash Course instead of going back to AA.

In any event, my good deed for the day.

[This message has been edited by Buttercup (edited 09-23-2002).]

posted 09-23-2002 07:47 PM            

In Jack Trimpey's first book, "The Small Book", there is a great discussion of the balderdash that is the 12-step program. Although Jack no longer advocates "The Small Book" due to its reliance on RET as a technique to achieve abstinence, I find the AA step discussion still has great validity. Given your recent experience, you might find it especially pertinent.

Whenever the beast throws up those niggling thoughts of (Hey, maybe AA is right and you DO have a disease) I re-read that section. You also might find Ken Ragge's, "The Real AA" extremely interesting.

Good reading!

posted 10-19-2002 04:41 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by quizmnw:
I guess the guys who wrote the "big book" initially had good intentions but....

---

Yeah, BillShit Wilson and Dr. Slob Smith had good intentions, it was called the good old "profit motive"...both of these degenerates were unemployed and they wrote the book and tried to sell shares in a company to publish the book, they did succeed in ripping off a few people and then continued to collect royalties from the book and pay themselves a very handsome monthly wage for the rest of their lives while they were "helping" people convert to the Oxford group religion under the guise of aa.

When I was in aa I did read a lot about the beginings of this insidious fellowship, quite an interesting story if you research a bunch of books and connect the dots.

One common thread, no where was the word QUIT in any of the aa books or literature.

It seems the 12 steppers recoil from the word QUIT like it was a hot flame.

I mentioned the word QUIT in an aa meeting discussion one time and the looks I received were down right nasty. After the meeting I was chastised by an aa elder and promptly told that "we alcoholics" can't quit, we can only arrest our disease one day at a time by working a good program, turening over our will to our higher power and attending aa meetings. At the time I felt very small, but deep down I sensed soemthing was wrong with the picture, unfortunately for me I spent another 8 months in aa before I discoverd AVRT and finally QUIT drinking alcohol for the rest of my life and QUIT attending aa 12 step cult meetings.

posted 10-20-2002 10:17 AM            

Buttercup,
The impression of the sponsor I had when I first was indoctrinated (they tried hard) to AA was of a zealot who was trying to save my soul. She actually believed that by asking the "Higher Power" for the right words to say (Step 11) every bit of advice she would give a newcomer was "God inspired." Seriously!

She was absolutely fanatical about the steps, but her own personal life was crazy - I found out that she was a single woman who had been "sober" for 10 years and had 2 children by different men in the program, the latest of whom she had said was not living up to his responsibilities and was still sick because he "didn't get it (the program)." I was amazed at her contempt for established religions like Catholics, Baptists etc. None of this (her situation) mattered to her fanatical brain, only "sober time" mattered plus she seemed quite conscientious with her children.

posted 10-20-2002 01:48 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Jo:
Panther,
Good to see your posts and how are you!

---

Jo, I've been good, thanks for asking. A close friend of mine just recently read the New Cure and made a BP. He was a long time drinking buddy of mine back in the day, we kind of drifted apart over the past couple of years (since I made my BP), but out of the blue he calls and tells me he wants to do something about his drinking habit, he wants my help he says, he was contemplating going to rehab. Of course I offer no help in my usual manner. LOL He read the book and made a BP and now it is up to him, I explained AVRT to him and he seems to have a good grasp of the technique since reading the book. I am sincerely happy for him.

I was at a HS football game the other night and seen an old aa elder that I hung around with while I was attending aa. I walked the other way to avoid contact.

It was a very akward encounter, and I have been feeling a bunch of RGD since then, I am approaching that magical aa sobriety date, I can't seem to shake this RGD feeling.

Real funny, not beast attacks to drink, but a real blah mood and a lot of remembering back to when I was fully entrapped in aa-12 step and how that time period was so strange and how I bought into the 12 step crap.

Well a beautiful fall day, good to see you around.

posted 10-20-2002 06:30 PM            

Your description of your AA sponsor is quite typical. I've seen lots of that type, both male and female. It hardly comes as a surprise, if you'll check out my introductory post. The Twelve Steps are nonsensical, and everyone knows it. There is no way that anyone could make themselves believe that without there being repercussions. Once one has so short-circuited their ability to think about this logically, the effects can't just be limited to AA doctrines. It will affect every other aspect of their lives.

Also, it doesn't amaze me in the least that she would also hold other religions in such contempt. The teachings of the Catholics, Baptists, other Protestants, Islam, and every other major world religion, and a good deal of the minor ones as well, directly contradict the religion of AA. Christians generally hold that God has given man the gift of freewill. Therefore, if you engage in activities like drinking and drugging, and develop an addiction, that was an act of freewill. It is not God's doing, but yours and yours alone; therefore, getting and staying sober isn't God's responsibility, but yours and yours alone. Also, the Christian God doesn't grant miracles on request, he doesn't give the Christian his daily "marching orders", and this business of asking for nothing less than perfection would be considered a form of blasphemy. After all, according to the Christian, there was but one "perfect man": Jesus Christ, the very son of God himself, and there will never be another. The religion of AA doesn't mix well with any other. If you have any doubts that AA is a cult, take a look at this:

quote:

---

12. Having had a spiritual experience as the result of this course of action, we tried to carry this message to others, especially alcoholics, and to practice these principles in all our affairs.

---

As a result, AAs tend to be a very squirrelly bunch. They say that your choices are AA or to "remain in the disease". From what I've seen of AAs, I'd rather take my chances with the disease.

posted 10-20-2002 07:53 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Panther:

Yeah, BillShit Wilson and Dr. Slob Smith had good intentions, it was called the good old "profit motive"...both of these degenerates were unemployed and they wrote the book and tried to sell shares in a company to publish the book, they did succeed in ripping off a few people and then continued to collect royalties from the book and pay themselves a very handsome monthly wage for the rest of their lives while they were "helping" people convert to the Oxford group religion under the guise of aa.

When I was in aa I did read a lot about the beginings of this insidious fellowship, quite an interesting story if you research a bunch of books and connect the dots.

One common thread, no where was the word QUIT in any of the aa books or literature.

It seems the 12 steppers recoil from the word QUIT like it was a hot flame.

I mentioned the word QUIT in an aa meeting discussion one time and the looks I received were down right nasty. After the meeting I was chastised by an aa elder and promptly told that "we alcoholics" can't quit, we can only arrest our disease one day at a time by working a good program, turening over our will to our higher power and attending aa meetings. At the time I felt very small, but deep down I sensed soemthing was wrong with the picture, unfortunately for me I spent another 8 months in aa before I discoverd AVRT and finally QUIT drinking alcohol for the rest of my life and QUIT attending aa 12 step cult meetings.

Talk about freedom!

---

posted 10-20-2002 08:00 PM            

I've been pretty busy with my courses lately. This is the first weekend that I've been posting for awhile. It's great. I love being a student again and it's great being in charge of your own life.

posted 10-05-2003 11:14 AM            

8. Made a list of all persons we had harmed, and became willing to make amends to them all.
9. Made direct amends to such people wherever possible, except when to do so would injure them or others.
10. Continued to take personal inventory and when we were wrong promptly admitted it.

These steps effectively just say: 'Ok, now that you've sobered up and wised up, see if there is any mess that you caused while you were acting like an a***hole that you can clean up. But remember that sometimes "Least said, soonest mended" is the best policy, and that actions speak louder than words. And learn from the experience.'

posted 10-10-2003 04:46 PM              

Your premises are factually incorrect, so it's hard to know what point you're actually trying to make ... Perhaps you're suggesting that we join you in the barren wilderness of Atheism? Please clarify.

posted 10-10-2003 08:59 PM            

http://www.rube-goldberg.com/html/gallery.htm

posted 10-12-2003 10:56 AM            

It was a very akward encounter, and I have been feeling a bunch of RGD since then, I am approaching that magical aa sobriety date, I can't seem to shake this RGD feeling.

Panther,

I live in a very small town, and so it is unavoidable that I run into & see people from my AA (former) group. And it is always difficult. Part of "me" wants to believe in the unconditional (bullshit) "LOVE".

But, the RATIONAL part of me realizes that they are "wolves in sheeps clothing." They care nothing about you/me as individuals, only as converts. I understand your RGD.

Find out who you are and be yourself, with your own self-defined goals. I'm new to this forum, so I've probably borrowed or plaglarized a bit ( from Mr. Trimpey). Thanks for your consideration.

posted 10-12-2003 04:34 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Awakened:
... I'm new to this forum, so I've probably borrowed or plaglarized a bit ( from Mr. Trimpey). Thanks for your consideration.

AW

---

Omygosh....is that an issue?

I have to be honest, I have more than plagiarized from << I have directly stole>> -- Idea's, words, thoughts,and wisdom from Mr T on several occasions.

And if I'm being REALLY honest...also Panther, Phil, Pokey, Clearscreen, Bronwyn, India, Redsoap and others as well...........me bad -E

posted 10-12-2003 11:36 PM            

quote:

---

These steps [8, 9, & 10] effectively just say: 'Ok, now that you've sobered up and wised up, see if there is any mess that you caused while you were acting like an a***hole that you can clean up. But remember that sometimes "Least said, soonest mended" is the best policy, and that actions speak louder than words. And learn from the experience.

---

In most cases, for most drunks, the one and only "amend" that counts is abstainance. The drunk's family probably doesn't give a damn about anything else, and any other attempt at "amends" won't cut the mustard. So far as "...these are the normal actions of any reasonable, self-respecting person...", like hell they are. I never met any normal, self-respecting person who continually wallowed in such self-doubt and angst. Show me someone who "Continue[s] to take personal inventory and when [...] wrong promptly admitte[s] it", and I'll show you a doormat. Thanks, but no thanks!

Michael9810 wrote:

quote:

---

Buttercup, AA's Step 7 is a prayer of intercession, and is firmly within the Christian tradition.

Your premises are factually incorrect, so it's hard to know what point you're actually trying to make

---

quote:

---

Just for fun, picture yourself standing in a large attic, cluttered with many boxes stacked one upon the other. These old boxes contain the sum total of your experience. [...] Now, the idea is to bring everything out of the darkness and into the light so that you can see what it is and figure out what to do with it. The idea here is to get rid of all the hurtful memories, so think of this experience as you would cleaning out your attic.

Make yourself an inventory of what you can find right off and jot each memory down in your journal.
Magick Training: The Seven Scrolls
First Church of Satan
(Emphasis mine)

---

quote:

---

By the way, letters of apology do not need to carry a return address or even come from the town in which you currently reside. The point is that you are doing something positive to settle a matter in your own mind. [...] Balance is the key. As you deal with each and every memory both good and bad, right or wrong, mark its disposition next to it in your journal. When you pay a debt, mark it "Paid in full". When you settle a score, mark it "Settled". And when you have done all you could to set things right, mark that item "Canceled". So it is written, so it shall be! Out of mind, in the book, close the book.
Magick Training: The Seven Scrolls
First Church of Satan

---

quote:

---

Once you have brought all of your life up to date and have figured out just what has happened, you may deal with the rest of your life on a day-to-day basis. You'll keep your journal up-to-date and have a running total of your whole-self balance sheet.
Magick Training: The Seven Scrolls
First Church of Satan

---

posted 10-13-2003 04:29 AM            

I never met any normal, self-respecting person who continually wallowed in such self-doubt and angst. Show me someone who "Continue[s] to take personal inventory and when [...] wrong promptly admitte[s] it", and I'll show you a doormat.

Buttercup,

This is so true. If my sister tries to make amends to me one more time I think I'll flip. Just stop relapsing please and that will be sufficient. I can't stand to be around her when she's in "recovey" mode, constantly pointing out all of her faults and "character defects". My two sisters are completely 12-step whipped and I really don't know how to react to them anymore. They are so brainwashed I fear I'll never get them back.

posted 10-13-2003 06:15 AM            

I once represented a very spooky criminal defendant -- his crime was minor, but he manifested highly pathological behaviors, including stalking me and a couple of witnesses. Several months after he was released from jail I got a phone call, out of the blue, "apologizing" for "anything he might have done." No explanation. Took a while to figure out he was probably in some sort of AA thing and I was part of his moral inventory.

posted 10-13-2003 10:00 AM            

Hello!!!! What kind of sick shit is that?? This poor chump is so powerful in his thoughts, that apparently, he can harm me spiritually!!! When I think back on stuff like that, I either laugh, or drop to my knees and thank Ala I got out of AA with my sanity intact. Sometimes both.!!

posted 10-19-2003 09:56 PM              

You really should re-read your post, the thinking is notably clumsy. You develop this addled concept of 'perfection' (YOUR term), then inexplicably ascribe it to AA's Step 7. This false premise leads you to engage in several low-watt thought experiments -- including the supposed contradiction between God and prayer, thanks for clearing that up for us -- which
take you far astray the AA discussion.

Anyway, we might charitably say that your post is topically better suited to some junior college philosophy course than to serious criticism of Alcoholics Anonymous or its 12 Steps.

posted 10-19-2003 11:57 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by michael9810:
Buttercup,

[C]lumsy.

[s]erious criticism of Alcoholics Anonymous or its 12 Steps.

M.

---

Michael, I thought to re-read your post again to try and figure out what you're trying to say, but decided it wasn't worth the effort.
But this is my opportunity to say that the evil of the 12 steps is that they lay out 12 stupid hurdles to anyone making the rational decision to never drink again.
If I want religion, I wash my car. But I don't even let washing my car become a condition to my decision to never drink again.
To hell with powerless, coming to believe, making amends, doing inventory, getting God into my life, and sharing a cult with anyone else that will listen in order to not drink. That AA thinking lead me to drinking and drinking and believing that it wasn't my responsibility. NEVER AGAIN.

posted 10-20-2003 02:36 PM              

Personal religious and philosophical belief isn't really the issue here. Buttercup's intent is to "deconstruct" the 12 Steps, while mine is to offer the criticism that her conclusions are based on false premises, e.g. the absurd handling of Step 7 and HER concept of perfection.

You might want to develop further the idea that the Steps are actually hurdles to sobriety ... I think this argument is seriously flawed, but I would welcome more on the topic from you.

M.

posted 10-20-2003 03:29 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by michael9810:
You might want to develop further the idea that the Steps are actually hurdles to sobriety ... I think this argument is seriously flawed, but I would welcome more on the topic from you.
M.

---

The Steps are not a hurdle to sobriety. They actually facilitate it. In 12-Step philosophy, the term "sobriety" refers to a state in which one is tentatively between bouts of drinking/using. The goal is to remain in this state one-day-at-a-time for life.

However, the Steps are a definite hurdle to permanent abstinence; a state in which one refrains deliberately, confidently from indulging the natural appetite for acohol/drug-induced pleasure. This is a common reality acknowledged even by AA itself.

posted 10-20-2003 04:35 PM            

AVRT is a seminal idea that prompts striking insights into the nature of addiction and recovery. I think the most striking insight comes from the recognition that every single word of official doctrine, and every word spoken in meetings, fits the definition of the Addictive Voice, “Any thinking that supports or suggests the possible future use of alcohol or other drugs.“

Try it. Think back to meetings you’ve been to. Was there ever a word of encouragement that you might ever feel free of impending, catastrophic relapse? By “free,” I don’t just mean “momentarily protected,” but really free, as a normal person with the moral integrity to abstain under all conditions. Read through the "Big Book" of Alcoholics Anonymous, and see if you can find any guidance that would allow you to lead a self-directed life, seeking self-defined goals, free from impending doom. There are a few isolated words, i.e., “recovered,” which may appear, but these are so overwhelmingly contradicted by the disease/powerless concepts, that they stand with no meaning, almost as off-hand errors.

All of which leads to the disturbing conclusion that the 12-step fellowship is animated by the persistent desire to continue, not to quit altogether, the use of alcohol and other drugs. Thus, my frequent references to the Fellowship of the Beast, and to AA as the embodiment of the Beast, as the social manifestation of addiction, as addiction’s proxy, or as the purgatory of indecision.

The 12-steps were allegedly transmitted from the netherworld to Bill W via automatic handwriting, while he was in a beatific trance. Behold, when he awakened, was a tablet of paper, not stone this time, inscribed with the 12 commandements of AA, commonly known as “suggestions.” See Pass It On for more details about Bill and Lois Wilsons‘ weekend channelling sessions during which the dead paid social visits to their little house parties.

Nut case of not, Bill W was in that exquisite condition we call “all Beast," as he built the house of addiction, Alcoholics Anonymous. The vexing thing we have all experienced, even Snooty Michael, is that the Addictive Voice feels like me! Recognizing the Addictive Voice from within the bubble of addiction is like trying to look unaided at our own eyes. Bill W was in the bubble, I guarantee you all, when he conceived of a plan to replace his own moral judgment with adult supervision and quasi-religious piety.

There is simply no way that tentatively “sober, one-day-at-a-time,” addicted people can devise a way to defeat addiction. It’s the blind leading the blind, and when seeing a substance abuse counselor, it’s the blind paying the blind.

Only when we have a foil for the Addictive Voice, the definition/filter that allows objectification, can we finally shift from the eyes of the Beast to our own rounder, human eyes, and shift from the Beast’s narrow spectrum of feeling to the glorious rainbows of human emotion. Bill W never had that advantage, and he remained depressed, still seeking a “cure” for addiction in other drugs, until his death from addiction related causes.

He was truly a pathetic man, an itinerant sociopath, from what I have read of him, yet his pilgrim’s tale has enchanted a nation wishing to turn away from the ugliness of addiction to see its multi-colored coat, with disease victims, scientists toiling in their laboratories, physicians comforting the ill, sensitive couselors as beacons of hope, astute politicians with messages of hope for the afflicted, compassionate families who pray for their diseased members, and of course that band of selfless, grateful, altruists who simply want to tell others their own stories of redemption and newfound humility as a way of staying sober, one-day-at-a-time, themselves.

Granted, the friendly face of the Beast isn’t as ugly as the sillier one seen through the lens of AVRT. Thus disguised, the bureaucratic Beast can run freely in society, appearing to be a harbinger of hope for the addicted masses and their families, while it creates conditions perfect for mass, runaway addiction to alcohol and other drugs. Once seen and exposed, however, the Beast is neutralized, and its influence is limited to the perimeters set by standards of decency.

The Addictive Voice is the code of the Beast. Likewise, the 12-step program is the code of the Beast, pure and simple. To take portions of it out of that context, seeking to find some redeeming value, is futile. To review Bill W’s life or “early AA,” in an attempt to find a better or kinder version of what we see today, is also futile, for reasons evident in Twelve Steps and Twelve Traditions, the “sponsor’s manual” that confidently predicts exactly what we see in today’s addiction treatment industry. AA was rotten when it crawled out of the gutter in Akron, and hasn’t change a single scale on its back since then.

Jack Trimpey

posted 10-20-2003 09:27 PM              

You really should get to more meetings, if only for research purposes. Your spiel is well rehearsed, but your rendering of AA and its membership is pure fantasy. Excepting the board's cadre of fawning sycophants, Rational Recovery's audience appears limited. I suppose shock sells, but I wonder how many readers you've FAILED to reach as a result of all this posturing and deception.

posted 10-20-2003 10:06 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by michael9810:
Rational Recovery's audience appears limited.
M.

---

You're correct. But with a lot of hard work, this'll change for the better. People need to know they can quit addiction without fear of their own urges and with conviction of their own God-given willpower.

No one's impressed by your bullying here. You don't even bother to cloak your intentions with intellect anymore. Predictably, you've reduced yourself to name-calling. Thats ok.. others do it here, too. They're just more honest about it.

Your last post is a good example of 12-Step hypocrisy.

posted 10-20-2003 10:37 PM            

I have been very kind to Michael. I have tried to get him to participate constructively in this BBS, and I have also tried to get him to come to terms with his difficulties surrounding the subjects of addiction and recovery. For a while I hoped he would come around, offering good counterpoint for the polemics we enjoy here. No dice, he folds on close contact debate, then withdraws and ambushes someone else. I have persuaded and cajoled, and occasionally called him out on his reason for visiting this BBS.

He hasn’t answered, and he continues to post juvenile taunts toward me, and to pose faux intellect when others attempt to contribute their ideas on AVRT-based recovery or 12-step criticism. He reminds me very much of the class clown who teases the class with funny faces while the teacher’s back is turned, and then makes snide, sidelong remarks when disciplined.

Michael isn’t sincere. Lately, I've decided he isn’t even nice, although he did strain to show some degree of decency early on. He really doesn’t want to contribute anything, nor does he want to learn. He pretends to be above AA, merely a wise intellect who can, like famous persons past, see profound good and wisdom in the 12-step movement, and of course sees only a cheap facade of verbiage in AVRT-based recovery. My apologies for procrastinating the dismissal of Michael from this BBS.

Michael has been rocketed back into the state of limbo from whence he came. Goodby, Michael. You will not be missed, unless I'm missing something.

posted 10-21-2003 06:35 PM            

Then I look at Will Bilson's brevity in explaining sex problems in the Big Book, saying that it's up to God alone to judge our sex situation, and I see it's a pretty handy way for Will Bilson to forgive himself for being a 13th stepping pig. I find it strange he had so little to say about sex problems - Bilson seemed to have plenty to say about everything else.

Will Bilson was a walking, talking fruitcake! (Also edit to add All you have to do is read objective (non-AA propaganda) accounts of Bilson and wonder who in the hell would follow this clown.

[This message has been edited by BongoFury (edited 10-21-2003).]

posted 10-23-2003 02:55 AM            

quote:

---

You really should re-read your post, the thinking is notably clumsy. You develop this addled concept of 'perfection' (YOUR term), then inexplicably ascribe it to AA's Step 7. This false premise leads you to engage in several low-watt thought experiments...

---

You really are the humour-impaired twit. I put lots of in that original post for a reason: it was a serio-comic send-up of the 12 Steps. I guess that the cult that is AA doesn't approve of humour? Can't laugh at itself once in a while? Actually, I really don't give a rat's @55 about AA, or its Steps, or its silly mummery.

If you want to go through at that folderole, those FMIs, those weepy-eyed confession-sessions with some dumb-@55 sponsor who's probably as screwed-up as you are, and all the rest of the BS, then, by all means, enjoy! And, some day, if you get sick and tired of all that white-knuckling, and want to do something about your addiction, then RR is just a mouse-click away.

quote:

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It is easy to let up on the spiritual program of action and rest on your laurels. You are headed for trouble if you do, for alcohol is a subtle foe. We are not cured of alcoholism. What we really have is a daily reprieve. Every day is a day when you have to carry the vision of God's will into all of your activities.

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posted 10-23-2003 04:07 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Buttercup:
[B] [QUOTE]
You really should re-read your post, the thinking is notably clumsy. You develop this addled concept of 'perfection' (YOUR term), then inexplicably ascribe it to AA's Step 7. This false premise leads you to engage in several low-watt thought experiments...

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You really are the humour-impaired twit. I put lots of in that original post for a reason: it was a serio-comic send-up of the 12 Steps. I guess that the cult that is AA doesn't approve of humour? Can't laugh at itself once in a while? Actually, I really don't give a rat's @55 about AA, or its Steps, or its silly mummery.

If you want to go through at that folderole, those FMIs, those weepy-eyed confession-sessions with some dumb-@55 sponsor who's probably as screwed-up as you are, and all the rest of the BS, then, by all means, enjoy! And, some day, if you get sick and tired of all that white-knuckling, and want to do something about your addiction, then RR is just a mouse-click away.

quote:

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It is easy to let up on the spiritual program of action and rest on your laurels. You are headed for trouble if you do, for alcohol is a subtle foe. We are not cured of alcoholism. What we really have is a daily reprieve. Every day is a day when you have to carry the vision of God's will into all of your activities.

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posted 10-27-2003 03:42 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Carefree:
The only steps that have any kind of validity, or make any real sense, are # 8, 9 & 10:

8. Made a list of all persons we had harmed, and became willing to make amends to them all.
9. Made direct amends to such people wherever possible, except when to do so would injure them or others.
10. Continued to take personal inventory and when we were wrong promptly admitted it.

These steps effectively just say: 'Ok, now that you've sobered up and wised up, see if there is any mess that you caused while you were acting like an a***hole that you can clean up. But remember that sometimes "Least said, soonest mended" is the best policy, and that actions speak louder than words. And learn from the experience.'

As these are the normal actions of any reasonable, self-respecting person, I fail to see why anyone should need to lay them out as three, pretentiously worded, steps.

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posted 10-28-2003 02:14 PM            

The only step I like is Step 14.

AA's steps 1-12 totally whacked me out, and made me much sicker than I was prior to AA. Sure, Bill and Bob meant well, but the road to ruin is lined with good intentions.

Step 13 is already reserved (that's a term in AA when a person with some long term sobriety starts dating/doing someone new to AA. "Hey, Baby, c'mon up and I'll take you thru the steps".

So, (ahem) Step 14 is when one either hits the wall with booze/drugs/12 step groups or all the above and makes a crisp decision/Big Plan, and learns AVRT.

14 is when one can unflinchingly shit-can all the 12 step literature (physically), ideas, feelings, notes, 4th steps, 8th steps, brainwashing, and thoughts the AA has you believe.

14 is when you make a large sparkely patio using chips. The patio is like a tomb of an era of pain and hell I'd like to respect, but never go back to, and step into permanent, sustained abstainence.

I am 12-step-averse, but the intent of some of the steps, and the usefulness of some of them are part of my life. Example: I just took a look at some stuff I said to a friend and afterward I thought about it (some AA nazi's might say "well, that's step 10!!", and to them I say which came first, Bill and Bob, or introspection?).

posted 10-29-2003 01:28 PM            

I am new to this whole Rational Recovery thing and I must say the Rational Recovery book is "singing" to me! I have recently been introduced, "rather forcibly" to the world of AA and I am sooooo glad that I had the presence of mind to not get "taken in" or sucked into the kind of thinking that they promote. From the very first meeting I attended, I never felt comfortable. Not even for a second. I tried to give it a chance, but the whole time I was at the meetings, I was thinking that there is something very wrong with what was going on. I kept telling my family that I thought it was a weird ~cult~ and that all the people do is replace alcohol with meetings and that the people never get better. I just couldn't understand how relying upon other people and/or some abstract "higher power" to stop drinking was doing anyone any good. To me, those people are severely stunting their soul's evolution. They accept this absolutely ridiculous idea that they are diseased for life, and they will remain so until they die. Does that make sense? To accept that you were born ~sick~ and are doomed for life????
I always hated...and I mean HATED that everytime I spoke up I had to say that I was an alcoholic or an addict...which incidentally, because I was new, everytime I spoke up, the energy I got from the "AA elders" was almost hostile! You could almost hear their inner beasts screaming at me to shut the hell up!

Now that I have read about Rational Recovery and have made my BP, I will never say that I am an addict or an alcoholic again. I am living in a place with a lot of people and we have morning meetings where everyone says something to "check in". I told them that I will not participate in the NEGATIVE daily affirmation nonsense ever again. (Hi my name is "so n so" and I am an addict) Instead I choose to affirm something positive about myself and am sticking to that.

Rational Recovery has awakened me to accepting responsibility for my life and because of that, I am going to be able to get my life back on-track and never let anything (beastly) take me down again. My beast may be strong...but ultimately, he has no chance whatsoever at controlling me ever again.